He had the skills and intellect, and put them to good use both for the Light, and against the Light. Demandred hated Lews Therin Telamon with a deep vengeance, his only reason being that Lews Therin achieved greater success than he did. Demandred is also known to have wanted Ilyena , Lews Therin's wife, to himself. All in all, Lews Therin was the reason that Demandred turned to the Shadow.
Rand thinks to himself that if he had "offered a hand instead of a smirk," or "congratulated instead of competed," perhaps Berid Bel would not have turned to the Shadow and become Demandred AMoL, Ch.
Demandred hates Rand as he hated Lews Therin. His hatred pretty much simply shifts from one to the other This passage needs a reference. He is not known to have a particularly good relationship with the other Forsaken, especially Sammael. This most likely arises from the fact that, during the War of Power, both Demandred and Sammael were military generals, and both wanted the honor of killing Lews Therin This passage needs a reference.
Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage have formed a loose alliance in which they have decided to eliminate all of the other Forsaken before turning on each other WH, Ch. He becomes involved with Shendla , a Sharan woman. Although Demandred no longer feels capable of affection, Shendla is almost enough to change this. Over time, because no one knew until A Memory of Light where Demandred had established his base, a number of theories were developed as to his identity and location.
One of the most popular theories was that Demandred has disguised himself as Mazrim Taim. There was a lot of evidence as to this throughout the series. However, this theory came to an end when Robert Jordan came out and said that Demandred and Mazrim Taim were not the same person.
Some people believed that Demandred was working with Semirhage in Seanchan. In support of this was the fact that Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage were loosely allied. Other theories were that Demandred had placed himself with the Whitecloaks , the Sea Folk , or the Sharans. Have you convinced Demandred to stop thinking he is all but the Great Lord's heir?
You may have seen them now, but if so, they haven't been on-screen for long. So, what I'm saying is basically this: There are clues as to what Demandred is up to.
You could figure that out. I think it would be hard, but not so hard that someone won't guess it. And, knowing WoT fandom, someone probably has. A day in which all order is deliberately inverted; the high perform lowly tasks running errands, serving at table, etc.
Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one. So, if Taim started at twenty or so, like Rand actually, that's later than Rand , and channeled a reasonable amount, he would probably slow at twenty-seven or thereabouts. After all, Nynaeve started probably at sixteen or seventeen, and only channeled on the uncommon occasion that someone was dying in her presence of some disease, and slowed at twenty-three that's the age Setalle Anan thought she was, but she's twenty-six.
That's seven years or so. Well, Taim looks thirty-five, according to Rand. He shouldn't. Even if he didn't slow until he was thirty-two, Rand still wouldn't have estimated him as being as much as fifteen years older than he was.
So, my conclusion—Taim is Demandred. Only a Forsaken could look that old, given the slowing. Yes, I know it's not solid, irrefutable evidence, but it's still good evidence. That's my two cents. Ryan R. The general idea I now have is that it was something like 10, maybe 20 meters between them. All in all it was a pretty short session, but well worth it, even with all the added travel time.
Hrm, but that wasn't all. I distinctly remember someone asking, "Did Demandred recognize Flinn? But then I mentioned that the distance wasn't all that great, just a couple of meters, he'd said so just a few days before, and he looked at me in a way that said, "you know all you need to know about this, I'm not going to make it any more obvious. I know it isn't proof, and I hate my guts for not taping this so I'm capable of showing something tangible, but the way it was all said, the way it played out I don't believe Taimandred anymore.
Not just because of this actually. Although there was something more, something about that he doesn't work "that way. Added to his look at my remark about the distance which he told me himself just two days before; he really shouldn't have tried to evade the Taim question using that , I've stopped believing in Taimandred. I hope KuraFire has a good recollection of exactly what Jordan said here.
I'd been wondering why Demandred didn't just use the True Power to dispatch the various swordsmen that challenged him, and I got to ask it last night at the Huntington Beach signing. I thought I'd post it here in case anyone else was wondering the same thing.
Brandon's response was that Demandred was the most wary and cautious of the Forsaken and he wasn't going to "mess with that medallion", not knowing fully what it was or what it could do, especially since he suspected that the swordsman was Lews Therin in disguise. Yeah, they're very obsessed with it, and the thing is, a lot of them are really close, and so it's a matter of a few points on Jim's scale Yeah, I figured, like what you were saying earlier about how they were Chosen because their talents They're all awesome.
And so, you know, you couldn't be a Forsaken simply for being awesome in the Power. It's like you had to be awesome at the Power, and be awesome at other stuff. Well, I mean Roderan is basically the only important king of Randland or one of them that we haven't seen on screen. He didn't deny or confirm any of the above. Tags demandred , Brandon then said quite excitingly IMO that it actually went further than that, and if perhaps Rand had died whether someone else would have taken over that role.
Well, our next little bit needs a little bit of a lead-in for our listeners who don't have access to our huge list of questions like we do. As part of our interview questions, we have a list of words, and we asked, "How do you pronounce each of these words?
There are probably some on here that don't need to be on here, and I know that there aren't some on here that should be, but these are the 43 that we came up with. Yeah, Spencer got mad at me because I went and annotated the list, like…I gotta be exact, and he's like "No…". I didn't get mad at you! I just took 'em off; I'm like, "Oh yeah, you're right; take that one off. And so Maria, Alan…would you please go through the list and tell us how to pronounce these names and places?
We have add-uh-LAY-us. Adeleas el-FINN. Aelfinn eyes-DEYE-shar. Cha Faile mid ch drag-car. Eelfinn guh-LAHD. Kandor door like the word lee-AH-nuh. Plains of Maredo ree-AH-nuh. Reanne seye-DAR. Tarwin's Gap tell-uh-RON-ree-odd. Okay, great. Any others you can think of that are commonly mangled, that would have driven Jim crazy? Grindle, is how I say it. Ben [? Another one that I have lots of problems with—and I can't believe I didn't get it on the list—but is the GOLL-um gholam , or the…I can't even pronounce it right now.
What about some of the other Seanchan beasts that made me think of, the grolm , then there were two of the others that…. Yeah, lopar. I think there was another one that I couldn't…maybe I'm just hallucinating. Fortuona, okay. I'm not sure how else you could pronounce that, but I've been wrong before, so That, I'm assuming is right; I'm pretty sure I heard Jim pronounce it that way, because that was his choice of name. There must be something else; there seems like a million things, and that I didn't add enough to the list.
Or poe-SAY? Latra Posae Decume. That's totally off the top of my head. I see it? First I want to applaud the OP for a well thought out theory supported by evidence. I have enjoyed the debate on this topic. While he was signing my books, I asked him if he could credit or discredit the theory that the Dark One charged Demandred with the task of wielding Balefire in an attempt to weaken the Pattern, so that the Dark One may be have a better chance of victory at Tarmon Gai'don.
He didn't quite understand my point and asked me to explain it again. When I did, alluding to the consequences of Balefire, and quoting the Dark One's asking Demandred about his willingness to use balefire for the Dark One, he quickly shook his head and gave an unequivocal no.
He said the Forsaken are using balefire to help unravel the Pattern. That was all he'd say on it, told me the books provide enough evidence for it. At any rate I'm not sure whether or not this helps anyone's arguments as I haven't read all of them; y'all write too much.
So—one Jordan booksigning against the theory, and one for. Sounds like we can't put this theory in the "Debunked" pile yet I suppose it's possible that Mr. Jordan may not have fully understood my question and therefore his answer isn't exactly for or against this theory.
He said that they've used balefire and the consequences were destabilizing the Pattern and that in the books you could see evidence of that. I should've been more specific in my question to him and my post here; that was first time I've ever commented on a message board, etc. I personally think the other fella's question was more specific therefore the answer probably more accurate as pertaining to the topic at hand. The answer he gave me upon further reflection could mean any number of things.
It's hard to say. Guess we'll all find out when A Memory of Light is published. Ask him if there is a Waygate anywhere near Lugard.
We suspect that Ogier-built Shaemal was somewhere in Murandy. It only matters because of the possibility of a Waygate in Murandy, which is why I phrased the question the way I did.
When I met Brandon on the book signing tour, they gave us a sticky to write what we wanted him to write what we wanted. I am the proud owner of the only copy that says:. I asked if I was right in thinking that RJ had saved the best for last, and Brandon simply said as far as the Shadow is concerned, the main player will be Demandred.
He said that all he could say would be that point would be addressed at a further point in the books. Okay, cause we've been trying to figure out who the heck is it, and we can't figure it out.
We're thinking Roedran, but it's like, too obvious. As far as I know, no. Now, that's the sort of thing that could be buried in the notes, but you know, I've read a lot of them, and as far as I know, no, that's not the purpose. Did the makers originally have a specific intention? Because I don't think Rand used it in the way they intended. I was I will RAFO that. But I will say that they did have a specific intention.
How about, here's something I can give you I've mentioned online that we're probably going to—for a certain anthology, the Unfettered anthology—we are going to be putting deleted scenes from A Memory of Light and some of these deleted scenes will answer some of your questions. Loialson That's exciting. Thank you. On every visit abroad, Sanderson said, he takes notes and tries to write down a story that inspired him, to be used as a "seed" for later stories.
For example, an exhibit of necklaces and armors made out of coins that he saw nine years ago in the Middle East inspired him to create "coin armors" for the characters in his new book A Memory of Light , which is scheduled to be launched in fall this year. I was trying to look it up on my Kindle, and I couldn't find it, so please God, let me not be wrong. In one of the Forsaken viewpoints in—I think it was Knife of Dreams or something?
And what I'm wondering is, is "the Dragon" an actual title, or was Lews Therin born to be the Dragon, or was that a mantle he picked up along the way? I can say some things on this, but it's going to be more I can say things that have been said. For instance, you can look at things like Logain, and how false Dragons were being brought up out of the Pattern, until Rand, and at that moment, everything collapsed.
When he what? No, it was when he took Callandor. Yeah, you're right. In the sky? Until Rand took up the mantle—yeah, that's it—and so it's when Rand Would the world have then been doomed, if Rand as a baby had been killed? That's something that you can theorize on, and you can look at the clues in the books, and Jim did not leave us an answer, so far as I know.
Finishing everything that RJ left to be finished in the amount of space required results in some dynamic pacing. I don't feel rushed is the right term. But I can see how people might feel that way. I could have gone three more books. It was not right to do so. This was what he wanted, and I did my best to fit everything in. I'm pleased with the result.
In regards to your specific questions, the Demandred kills were supposed to be abrupt to convey emotion of sudden loss. That's how things are in war. As for Fain, a piece of me does wish there had been time for more with him.
Do you plan on expanding on the Wheel of Time series more or is it done? Why did you have so many abrupt deaths? No, no more. RJ wouldn't want it. Abrupt deaths happen in war; it is the way this sort of thing plays out, I'm afraid. The biggest challenge for the book was fitting everyone in, and making sure they had relevant things to do.
Yeah, I can totally talk about this. So, "River of Souls" is about a specific character, and in the drafting process this is not something I actually pitched to Harriet early on, but in the later meetings I got together with them and pitched something which was a deviation from things Robert Jordan had said. Harriet told me from the get-go, Look you've got the notes, you've got the outline, you've got to be a writer, not a transcriber.
Robert Jordan would not have kept this the way it is, that's not how we work, and in a lot of places he said I'm thinking of doing this, OR this, and you'll have to decide which of those to do, or to do a third. And so I pitched one of these kind of audacious sequences to her; sometimes these work, sometimes they don't.
It's the sort of thing you need to do to create fiction, that I feel is daring, and you need to take these chances. But a lot of times you don't know if it's going to work until the book is done, and you can look at it together. And this was taking place in a region of the Wheel of Time world that Robert Jordan said I really don't think we're ever going to visit. Which is the part that was deviated, by doing this sequence.
And it's not that long, only about 7, words, so it's like a novelette. I sent it to Harriet, and she said "I really like this, but we're going to cut it". The reason being, that it broke up the flow of the novel, and it was introducing too many new elements at the beginning of the volume that was supposed to be wrapping up elements. And those who do storytelling know that can be a really dangerous thing to do.
That was the reason. It was a big additional segment, and this is not what you call a slim volume anyway. So as a reader, it was not fun. Not that there was anything wrong with the sequence, but it was not what my antennae said we needed. We needed to get on with it. Was Bao the Wyld part of Sharan prophecy? If so, was Demandred co-opting their Dragon prophecies? I was surprised to get an answer to this; I expect some of it will show up in "River of Souls" anyway.
An interesting follow-on question might be whether this means the Sharans were destined by the Pattern to fight for Team Dark. Along with that, Harriet spoke briefly about how impressed she was with Bao the Wyld, aka Demandred, that he was this stunning juggernaut of hatred and destruction, but also that he spent the time creating a life and position for himself among the Sharans.
It seems that he went there almost immediately after "waking" from the Bore, and that much of the activities he went through are in parallel with Rand's actions on the main segment of the continent, and that journey of Demandred's is what will be published in the Unfettered volume. Concerning the crystals collapsing into the hill after the battle Have you heard of a myth about Merlin in a crystal cave and the Holy Grail?
We all know what its other name is. Yes but there are many layers there. The sa'angreal was shaped like a cup -which I did notice earlier-. And Bao the Wyld, think about the name, it sounds like Beowulf -looks like I should read that for more theorizing-. Tags egwene , demandred , shara , sa'angreal , arthurian legend , wot influences , You said that the balescreams in Knife of Dreams were because Demandred was balefiring whole cities I told them By the way, Demandred was balefiring whole cities.
It certainly helped, and if I had been able to go back, and do—which I wouldn't have done—but if, you can imagine, there's a very cool interaction there, where he's there, and she's doing stuff, and he's taking advantage of it, but she's not seeing him and things like that. Like, the whole Demandred In Shara thing is awesome, because there's like twelve books worth of coolness of him being the hero Oh, well yeah, because I know you said you had to kind of I had to extrapolate a lot of the Sharan culture and things, which is where "River of Souls" came from.
At the end of the day, because I was extrapolating these things, that's what made them distracting from the main plotline, if that makes sense. And so, a lot of what I was doing was like, it you know Jim didn't name those; they're not in the notes When Gawyn and Galad were defeated so handily by Demandred, I was thinking it was a throwaway of two characters. Then Lan rolls in and it put everything in perspective to show how good he was. Was that the purpose?
That was part of the purpose. It was a war, and someone needed to take out Demandred. Gawyn's arc is tragic, and the end of the arc is what we all know he shouldn't do, by going out by himself.
Sam Mickel seems to think that Demandred becomes so obsessed with Rand during the book, and that this appears to have increased from previous books. Would you say that, and if so, why? I would say no, though the immediacy of what is happening makes it manifest, makes it look that way.
He has always been We see him in the beginning and at the end. He asks the GLotD, "haven't I done well. The problem I see is that Rand's capture is huge in the book and he obviously was part of Mesana's scheme but we dont have direct involement by a male that we can see. Another huge thing that happened in LoC is the founding of the Black Tower.
Another incident was that the Saldeans came to Andor. We also have in a later book one of the other Forsaken yelling at Aginor that he and Demandred were supposed to keep an eye on Rand. So putting these together it has to be something to do with the Black Tower. I think that Demandred is in the Black Tower as someone we have not seen yet because knows the four renegades that attack Rand later in PoD. This also puts Demandred with male channelers, Messana with the female channelers, and Semmirhage with the Senchan sp?
This shows the three penetrating the three strongest groups of channelers in Randland. No offense to the wise ones or Sea folk is intended in that statement. Mythman: That's an interesting idea there. Kind of like Min shares very similar characteristics to Ilyena, or it is implied. The only problem is it doesn't seem like a necessary thing to be required. I could see needing a woman for Rand to fall in love with, but in the big scheme of things, compared to the forsaken and rebellions, the dissension created by Taim doesn't seem to be essential to the end result.
But I agree it is entirely possible, given all the clues that we have seen of him. It could also be said that it wasn't necessarily what the pattern was trying to do, but it was something that would naturally happen.
The person who is second best always feels like he is being slighted in someway because people like the other guy better. It could just be human nature repeating itself. Callandor, give it up before you get an aneurism It's like the evolution debate going on. It is a really sad situation when the author of a well planned-out, well thought-out series states FLATLY that something isn't so, and the people turn around and say that the author must be wrong about his own series.
Just ignore them and they'll go away ;. Jak: Consider this along with what I said.. Rand is -not- the Creator's champion, he is the Champion of the Wheel.
It is his job and the other two as well to bring Balance back where it has started to tip out. Remember, it is said in one of the books that in ages past, the Dragon has been turned to the Shadow.. I'd have to find the exact quote, but I cannot think of a better example of balance going where balance is needed.
It is the nature of any wheel to have a need to be balanced. We get hit over the head with the concept of balance in these books from almost the very first pages. The Wheel -wants- to achieve balance, it seeks it.. In this age.. Rand, Matt and Perin. Three that the Wheel spins patterns -around- in order to achieve balance. The neat thing about it is, the Wheel should use a similar method to achive balance again.. Once in an age past, the Wheel spun out LTT and his companions.
Wouldn't it make sense to try that again? Spin out Rand and some other version of his companions? Therfore, balance should happen somewhere as far as the Forsaken are considered as well. It just makes sense from a balance point of view, that the Light should have a counter part for each one of the Forsaken.
The irony here of course is that the Forsaken are outside of the Wheel to some degree as they exist and cannot be 'respun' back into the pattern. Therefore, something similar, but just a bit different, should be spun into thier place instead. This is of course all the preamble to my first theory. I have a hunch on my next reading that I should be able to match up the counterparts of balance through events. I think we'll find that some major character vanishes or spins out each time one of the Forsaken do.
Likewise, everytime a Forsaken plays too much a part in events, another major character arrives. Can people please leave taim alone? All it is is that he wants to be like the other male forsaken. Mythman: I know the pattern requires balance.
But there is also the fact that the pattern changes ever so slightly with each turning. And would you not agree whether or not there is someone in this age who plays the exact same role that Demandred plays in the aol is fairly minor. I'm not going to say its impossible, because I believe it is quite possible it is, but the fact of it is there is no evidence to solidly back it up.
But I consider it moot since Jordan effectively said the Dragon never has turned with his comment "You believed Ishamael?! The Dragon has never turned. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether? A: Err, they are Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real. Q: So threads and souls are the same thing? A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world.
You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.
The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically. Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn? A: What? Do they have souls you mean? Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work. A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily.
It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms.
Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern. Callandor, your arguement against Taimandred seems to be based on what jordan said in an interview. However, RJ has repeatedly warned that he'll not divulge information that he intends to reveal in forthcoming books.
Well, most of the time. If Taim is to be reveled as Demandred, i dont see RJ letting us off the hook till he's good and ready. He has never said no right out that i recall. I suggest you put that fine mind of yours to tackling the theory's points on its merit without allowing that statement to limit discussion.
As for the theory itself, ablar made some fine points and managed to link the two pretty well in my opinion. But i thought the relationship btw Taim, Dashiva and Demandred is especially telling.
RJ has said there are no new forsaken and why. If so, why would Dashiva allow Taim to command LT's death? Any of the forsaken would have taken the opportunity to take over. And he was one of the strongest in the AOL, with more knowledge than anyone in htis age who managed to teach himself unless he knows otherwise. The other problem is that it would be impossible to explain taim any other way than as demandred. Consider for example,Taim's age.
Rand was certain he must have been channeling for 15yrs-how? If taim had channelled that long he'd have slowed. How does he survive the taint that long? As a darkfriend? In saldea? And rand says to be suspicious of anyone who learns too fast forget taim's blushes at that point yet taim picked Travelling rather fast. How do you learn testing except in a group setting?
In a few years in saldea? And why was he so confident with rand and the saldeans all ready to kill him unless he was warded? Rand couldn't do any of that without Asmodean's teaching.
Who taught taim? Logain is aware how much he knows, he couldn't accept that rand with a few yrs of channeling knew enough to cleanse th taint that couldn't be done in the AOL. Perhaps you should reconsider your stand. Jordan doesn't give answers to those questions which he wants to save for later, or might change his mind on.
He's given the exact same answer about Taimandred many times -- obviously, he's more than fine with us knowing that Taim is not Demandred. Continuing in such delusion is just that: deluding yourself. A: No, that is totally bogus. A: I was surprised For example: Taim can be Forsaken trained rather than being an actual Forsaken.
A: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.
Taim is Taim. Taim is almost certainly Forsaken trained. What's else there to reconsider? The entire argument, every single point , of Taimandred has been revoked and shown as false. Well Taim may be demandred but I blieve it more lickly he would be Morridin.
For a couple of reasons, one being what he makes the people wear: rd and black, these are colors assciated with Morridin. This would be associated with taim in the begging of one of the books can't remeber which where he is playing the old game with the fisher, and trying to control it and win the gam into where the DO would win. Also if Memory serves Demondred was more combat and millitiristic and was honored and insulted from the honors of LTT.
So when Taim said:"I sent him away, Taim said. I can barely avoid stabbing myself, and I've never felt the lack. They have the power, now. LIke Ishmeal was in the age of Legends. Also LTT would have a bigger revenge fettish against someone who made him kill his wife and all of his kin like Ishmeal did. Demandred for the insults of the Age of Legends and Asmoden would hate Rands guts for binding him asmoden against his will for his suirvival against the wreath of the other Forsaken.
Type: Q and A Session Questioner: Isabela Q: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred? As far as the series is presently concerned, the majority of proof still points to taimandred! It would take RJ some juggling to come up with anything else and likely still wouldn't wash. Not unless Taim developed the same hatred for LT that demandred had as evidenced by perrin's nose among others and LT suddenly transfered his feelings for demandred to Taim.
But hold on to it if you wish. Trained enough to intimidate osan'gar? And if you want to claim one of the forsaken sent him, why then does he resent playing second fiddle to rand so? Separating the two will only raise more Qs. Alright everyone this is my first posting.
I have to say most of the evidence in the books seems to point to Taim being Demandred. Jordan's comments seem to defuse that. So at this point all the arguments for and against have been laid on the table and I think the question now is--how do you explain Taim acting SO MUCH like Demandred if he's not Demandred.
Perhaps Demandred used some sort of Compulsion that imprints a portion of his persoality onto Taim or makes a link with him that allows him at times to directly control him.
I don't have the books with me to get quotes, but the wording from some of the chapters with Taim is eerily similar to the wording in the section about Demandred in the reference book. I just find it strange that RJ would make Taim act so much like Demandred without some sort of connection. If anyone has any ideas let me know. If I sound ridiculous let me know too. Those like Cyndane and Moghedien. And being assoicated with Moridin is not the same as being Moridin. Taim really isn't one for manipulating Rand so much, unless it's in one key area and even then it's not so much manipulating Rand but working towards the goal of : splitting Rand from the Aes Sedai.
That's in line with what the Shadow stands to benefit -- hardly actions specific to an individual. But there are many problems with Moridin being Taim, two obvious ones being: 1. Taim has been in the series throughout the time Ishamael is dead, and even mentioned prior to this. We've seen him on screen since Lord of Chaos, and he was clearly an actual figure throughout The Fires of Heaven since Bashere was chasing him.
All through this, there's a clear fact: Ishamael was dead. Moridin did not appear on the screen until A Crown of Swords, and being generous might have a timeline that extends to late Lord of Chaos but that's being very generous with speculation. Taim, again, showed up in the very first chapters of Lord of Chaos. He's there for about a month before it's even likely Dashiva showed up.
How can Moridin be factoring into this, since he was awaiting transmigration at the time? Taim still exhibits the characteristics of Taim. It was not large among palaces, but most nobles lived in buildings far smaller and less grand. Would be quite a strange thing if Moridin was designing palaces this way. Yes, you're refusing to deal with the overabundance of directly stated interview questions for Because you don't want to?
And you try to phrase this as if I'm the one whose delusional, here. The majority of nothing points to Taim being Demandred. It's like saying if you eliminate all the evidence against it, the books clearly point to Egwene being the Dragon Reborn! It would not take Jordan some "juggling" for the completely circumstantial and greatly puffed up theory that is Taimandred to be completely wrong -- after all, he's stated it at least FOUR TIMES that we have on record here.
There couldn't possibly have been a Forsaken that was freed since around NE about 15 years before the series began. Oh, no, wait there was: Ishamael. Maybe that is why Taim has connotations of Forsaken, and still utilizes Moridin's colors -- because he was trained by Ishamael, who is Moridin. There's more than enough time for Taim to be a Forsaken trained Dreadlord. Because Taim is an ambitions bastard?
Because Taim is an arrogant bastard? It's not some impassable point that Taim just hates Rand and hates playing the charade that he does. How much fatigue does a channeler have to go through for it to show? I don't know, and I really don't care -- Jordan specifically said that it did. How long has Taim been channeling? Quite an important question, and one that isn't known yet.
Point is that Taim is in his late twenties, and his age was due to being travel worn. Why did the Black Ajah go to so much effort to free him? Maybe because they were ordered to by someone who knew what Taim was and how he could be important? Someone who wanted him freed, and didn't like that he was trapped?
Maybe someone who had previously been using Taim before for their own goals? Would Demandred watch Rand by proxy? I don't see why not he is known for using them And there's always the possibility that Demandred is watching Rand directly anyway -- just not as Taim.
And it's pathetic to say that Demandred is watching over Rand, so he must be Taim. Taim hasn't seen Rand in going on 4 books now. Taim's almost entirely been off by himself with the Black Tower -- not watching Rand. It seems perfectly suited to be a statement to no one, but is truly just you voicing your own thoughts.
Again, there's nothing to reconsider. There are at least four direct statements by Jordan saying that Demandred is not Taim.
Every single "reason" and argument for Taimandred has been completely refuted. The only people that persist in the nonsense are ones like you who have to exclude half of what they do not want to deal with because they cannot give up their delusions. The "evidence" for Taim being Demandred is entirely circumstantial. Quite a lot of people have these same reactions. Taim is Forsaken trained. That right there is all you need to know.
He uses the same phrasings for somethings and why not if he spent several years training with Demandred or Ishmael. And if your refering to the "so-called Aeil" statement, any of the forsaken might have used that phrase too.
So I don't believe it is too far of a stretch to say that Taim could have just picked up their attitudes by training with them. And we know Osan'gar was killed in WH. Not to mention, as far as we know, Asmo cannot be reborn in any fashion because the DO said so himself in the end of LoC.
So I'm pretty sure you missed the mark there. Look at the first three books, he never once posed as someone else to get to Rand. He may have had some hand in training Taim, since we know Taim most likely got some training before Demandred escaped the bore. And we know he is considered on of the more successful darkfriends, so he could have a close connection to the forsaken even if he isn't one of them. Mainly, it just seems as if Ishy has bigger things to plan right now, rather than assume the identity of Taim.
I would have no problem leaving it at that except for one thing -- the thing that starts him on this fit of rage is when Rand says that since he is the first Asha'man, that makes Taim the second. It's not just a simple dislike of not being on top, it's an absolute personal hatred of being second to a specific individual for your whole life.
I could understand Taim being irritated by that comment, but to go into this fit of rage over it can't be explained by just arrogance or being trained by the Forsaken. I'm not arguing for Taimandred here, but I just feel that there has to be more of a connection there somehow. Just the feeling I get. Oh, that's right, I have it as part of my signature.
And if the best you're reduced to is saying "It's complicated" as some from of objection, when what your advocating has been completely ruled out, do what is left to you: sulk. And even the implication that Taim being Demandred is somehow more simple is quite laughable.
Taim is still Taim You're entire argument is that Taim's "fit of rage" which hardly fits what happened in the first place is so out of the ordinary that it is distinct to what Demandred's past is like.
So, if it's distinct to just Demandred, and Taim is expressing it, and you're arguing for this I think you left out the punch line where you said "Taim is Demandred. Callandor, assuming Taim isn't demandred, what do we have?
We have Taim sharing same hook nose profile with demandred. Why does he share the same half smile? And of course the hatred they both have for LTT and viceversa just happens to be coincidence based on the fact that Taim was trained by an arrogant cuss or some such. BTW, where did you get evidence he's forsaken trained? When was he trained? Perhaps he was trained in captivity?
I mustn't forget. RJ says there no new forsaken, something about being contemptous of channelers of this age-yet dashiva went against rand on his orders. You know if RJ admits he's been playing aes sedai word games on this one, you'll going to be very red in the face.
If he dont, the series will do a little somersault. They both have hooked noses? Is this the best you can do, really? Look to Bashere, Faile, Deira -- or do this short cut: look to just about any Saldaean, because they standardly have hooked noses. Taim is Saldaean. No way we can explain this match with him and Demandred Half smile? Again, another thing that is hardly unique like, say, one eye or one arm. Rand has done it, Mat has done it, Aram has done it, Fain has done it, Elayne has done it, Laras has done it, Leane has done it, etc.
Do you want to include "small" smiles? How about grimaces? More and more and more and more. And the examples I gave were just up till The Fires of Heaven. It can be from just Taim's inside knowledge of what he is doing which is NOT being Demandred for one , not just because it so magically has to be that Taim is Demandred.
Where is Taim said to hate Lews Therin? Demandred transfered his hate to Rand, yes, but whoopie. So did all the Forsaken. And as shocking as it sounds, the Forsaken aren't alone in their hatred of Rand. To give just one example, take Fain. Is Mazrim Taim Fain because of this hatred they share?
To give another take Toram Riatin. Is he Taim because of this hatred they share? How about Rochaid? Or Gedwyn? So on and so on. Furthermore, Taim hating Rand is hardly a known thing. He can just see him as important and annoying. Niall didn't hate Rand, but he sure found him important enough to use him, and certainly was annoyed that his actions were ruining his plans though I guess you could argue he wouldn't attribute them to Rand himself, but I'd say it serves my point.
All three of these examples are completely circumstantial. As well, I believe you're misconstruing the situation -- Taim was obviously shocked that Dashiva was involved, and it would seem hardly correct to say that he ordered him. The timing is also suspect for when the order was truly lifted, due to the entire reason the order was lifted was due to finding out Rand had the Choedan Kal and was intending to Cleanse saidin -- something known in The Path of Daggers. Plus, why would Osan'gar be openly talking about the "simple probablilities" of the next attack on Rand killing him, when there is still a standing order to not kill Rand?
Moridin's words in Winter's Heart seem to be nothing more than confirmation of what has been already decided -- before the attack. A final point is that there have been two ordered attacks on Rand by Taim that we know of. Only one was followed by Demandred's order of one of the people Kisman , and that was the attack to go ahead on Rand in Far Madding. Dashiva was not involved with that attack, though the other four were, which shows nothing other than that Taim can be an important and powerful Darkfriend -- like say a Dreadlord.
And you would think the fact that Taim and Demandred both make separate orders for the same thing as if they didn't know of each others orders would tip you off that they're not one in the same as has been confirmed, again , previously by Jordan.
Because Taim is not Demandred -- see above. Taim has advanced knowledge prior to meeting Rand that more than implies being trained, IE: knowing gateway and Traveling are synonymous, knowing the weave for finding the talent to channel, Healing, all the advanced weaves he has taught all the Asha'man, and all the other weaves he's kept in reserve for his private classes.
Taim knows the trick for ignoring heat and cold. There is not one single solitary example of a 3rd Ager knowing this trick without being taught it in the series -- but Mazrim Taim.
Exceptions that important do not exist in this series. Taim has from his own admission been channeling for quite some time, and estimated to be channeling for even longer though his age being more established by Jordan -- but still sadly vague -- does shorten it a bit. From what he's said about teaching other men to channel it's been quite a few years. Jordan himself has said Taim has slowed, which takes time to actually get the effect. And Taim is a sparker. A: He was born with the Spark.
If he's important enough in the Darkfriend structure, there's a simple answer for this: he's been given black cords so there would be none to exceptionally little taint effect on him. At the very least of this Taim has been taught things with the One Power. He's been channeling for some time, so that puts his first usage before the start of the series.
The only people that could give him that knowledge are Forsaken, and the only one to do that early enough is Ishamael. The fact that it explains Taim's actions later on in the series such as the focus on dividing Rand from Aes Sedai, the colors of Moridin speaks all the stronger to this notion.
Any bearing here? None that I can see. And nevermind the fact that there are three other statements that directly support that clear and concise statement of refutation. You're thinking I'm going to be "red in the face? My view has already been vindicated four times over -- it's your view that has been smashed to bits and tossed out into a river, yet you're for some reason still holding onto that delusion.
Briefly callandor, i could go on with this but what'd be the point? It wont change what jordan has said or your opinion. If jordan had said "no demandred's not taim he's If you'd brought up a more convincing candidate, perhaps i'd have considered.
God knows what insanity.. Do you consider yourself sane? Perhaps you think you're jordan? Any voices? Don't even try to pass this off as if you're doing me any favors by backing away. Jordan has said exactly this. Something about "No, Demandred is not Taim You know it's strange, you'd think there might be some type of award for such things -- oh, wait, there is! I'm not the one trying to somehow completely evade the issue of the author saying the view I'm pushing for is flat wrong.
I'm not the one saying "If only Jordan had said this That you'd stoop low enough to try to be witty and original with going with my screen name -- and drawing pathetic implications of it, instead of, I don't know, dealing with the issue is a bit sad.
But what do you have left to do, honestly? You have no evidence that hasn't been flatly contraverted. RJ already killed it. Do you need a signed letter from him to have this theory go away. Demandred is not Taim and Taim is not Demandred. Its not gonna happen. Unless I am mistaken, Jordan said it right out that Taim is not Demandred.
If I am mistaken, we continue to argue. Yet who can he be? In the books, in Demandred's POV it is not written where he stabilized himself. And about Taim He might think that Rand is a false Dragon and Taim himself the true.
0コメント